- ALF (programming language) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)
There was no concensus to delete; the nomination search for sources was quickly shown to have been lacking, SlimVirgin's rationale for deletion was "I've read elsewhere that people have been having trouble finding third-party sources for this" and user BPMullins and Jquarry both claimed that the only sources were by the language creator, which was contested without response. The reason I contested it was the paper "Logic Programming Tools for Advanced Internet Programming" in Logic Programming: Proceedings of the 1997 International Symposium was written by Paul Tarau, who is not listed as an author of ALF. Besides a general Prolog article, the only other constraint logic programming languages with real implementations that have articles are CHIP, Curry, and MOZART. John Vandenberg 06:45, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn now, sources have been provided. Delete again if article is not cleaned up by DRV close. -N 13:19, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Disagree with delete again statement. Recommend instead to Stub the article and clean it up when possible, without artificial timetables. SqlPac 13:59, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong Overturn the deletion. The rationales for deletion were thoroughly refuted by several people who cited several Attributable and Verifiable sources (which ideally will be included in the updated version of the article.) Those who voted to delete did not bother responding to those who contested their statements. Some indicated that they did not even bother checking the sources supplied, and made their decision based on the title, which seems wholly insufficient to delete an article. Based on the sources and the number of published works, ALF appears to be notable. Citations provided include works by:
- Prof. Simon Thompson, Director and Professor of Logic and Computation at Kent University
- Harold Boley, Adjunct Professor, Computer Science, University of New Brunswick and Leader, Semantic Web Laboratory, Institute for Information Technology - e-Business, NRC; member of the W3C and co-author of the Semantic Web Rule Language spec.
- Rolf Grütter, scientific project manager and lecturer, Institute for Media and Communications Management, University of St. Gallen, Switzerland
- Prof. Michael Wooldridge, Department of Computer Science, University of Liverpool
- And several others who are not the original language creators. SqlPac 13:56, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn - is this a joke? It's well known in academic circles. By the way, I remember it from my comparative languages class at Tech which is why I was so shocked to see it here. It's definitely an encyclopedic topic. --BigDT 15:28, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I originally closed this as delete, and then after a while I changed my interpertation to no consensus. I am reopening this to allow this DRV to run its full length to allow for addition comments regarding this closure of afd per request. Yamamoto Ichiro (山本一郎)(会話) 18:17, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn deletion. The arguments for keep were cogent and those for delete were weak (and incorrect). Even if all statements were weighted equally, there was no consensus. Notability is established in the article and sources given. Clearly the article can be improved (by giving a non-technical introduction) but the article is not particularly weak. Thank you for undeleting temporarily (so I could see the article!) and I realise that it may be difficult to assess what is inevitably a technical article. Thincat 10:05, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion - The article is sourced to the creator of the language, 90% of the sources in the google scholar search results posted by editors in the AFD are either authored by Hanus (the creator), co-authored or edited by him. After filtering through the remaining ones, most references to ALF are 'an example of such' complete with a list or are written by the authors Hanus worked with on the project or on books about it in the past.
- A single brief mention as an example of that type of language does not make a notable language. Also, to BigDT - why would it have been a joke? It had gone via AFD and there is a 66% majority in favour of deletion (which would be a supermajority, but not necessarily a consensus). As the keep comments, in my view don't actually manage to show notability, I would say it was a good decision to delete.-Localzuk(talk) 12:13, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment 83% in favour of overturning deletion consistutes a superdupermajority. SqlPac 17:48, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I think it's a joke because of exactly what Tony said below - this is the kind of thing I would expect to be discussed in an encyclopedia. I learned about this language at Tech. Things that you learn about in school are kinda sorta the things you think would expect to find in a reference material that holds itself out as containing the sum of human knowledge. Garage bands from Singapore that have a MySpace page and got a write-up in their local newspaper once or twice we can do with out. But articles on academic subjects ought to be in here. --BigDT 22:43, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- You are missing the point - there was an AFD, so why would you talk about 'is this a joke'? Procedure was followed, so it isn't a joke. My point is that you should stick to your reasoning rather than making hyperbolic comments such as those - otherwise you are simply being offensive to those who disagree with your viewpoint.-Localzuk(talk) 13:33, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn. There seems to be enough sources to justify article. Loom91 14:01, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn if it's the Alf discussed here: http://www.informatik.uni-kiel.de/~mh/systems/ALF.html
- This is the kind of thing I'd expect to be discussed in an encyclopedia. --Tony Sidaway 19:36, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, that's the same ALF currently under discussion. Pound for pound it seems you find less academic content and more stuff about state flags and celebs du jour around here. SqlPac 23:40, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- And don't forget about plot summaries of every episode of every TV series ever made. --BigDT 00:45, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Please keep the personal opinions about what should be generally here to yourselves, they are inappropriate. Also, you say 'yes this is the thing discussed here' - but that is because it is the site of the author! Hanus created the language...-Localzuk(talk) 12:16, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Your personal opinion about the author of the site is irrelevant, please keep it to yourself. The poster asked if it was the same "ALF" described at another website. It is. That's that. Your opinion of that website has no bearing on anything in particular. SqlPac 19:21, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- No, you miss the point - Hanus created the language, so citing him on anything to do with it in order to show notability is flawed and pointless. My opinion on the author of the site wasn't even mentioned - it is simply that he is the creator of ALF and as such not a suitable source to show notability. My other comment about the the inappropriate comments stand - they serve simply to do one thing, belittle the opinions of other editors. This is simply uncivil and is A Bad Thing.-Localzuk(talk) 19:28, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Fortunately for me I did not cite "him on anything to with it in order to show notability". I also don't take much interest in peripheral side-arguments that miss the point of the main discussion entirely. There are already more than enough bureaucrats trying to WikiLawyer their opinions onto others. SqlPac 22:32, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- No, you didn't cite him - but you did respond to a DRV that is based on an AFD which called for the deletion of the article based on the fact that notability has not been proven, and then an editor based his comment on the creator's website - completely missing the entire notability argument. Also, I don't care about your perceptions of bureaucrats or wikilawyers and find the comment to be completely odd and irrelevant, a side argument if you will. None of my arguments have been side-arguments, all are related directly to endorsing the deletion of an article which fails to show notability.-Localzuk(talk) 22:38, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- One of the arguments for the AfD was that notability had not been proven. If you were actually concerned about disproving notability, then look up the published works provided above and then respond to the statement that these published works indicate notability. Everything else is an irrelevant side-argument, if you will. Including accusations that I cited "him on anything to do with it in order to show notability", which you called "flawed and pointless". Which, by your own admission, I did not do. As for the question at hand, it did not ask whether the item was "notable" based on the website given; it asked "are we discussing the same thing as what's on this website". And the answer remains an emphatic YES, and nothing you've provided so far in this thread changes that fact. Perhaps you have something to prove that the ALF in the article, and the one on the website are actually two different things? If not, then I believe this thread is finished. SqlPac 22:51, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. It is right to bear in mind the self-publishing caution at WP:V#Self-published sources (online and paper) but when someone creates a programming language it is not unreasonable to take the creator's papers as being reliable about the nature of the language itself. This in itself does not establish notability. If the creator and his colleagues are the only people to use ALF, the topic may well not be notable. So, seeing as the matter has been challenged, I have added to the article a reliable third party reference to the fact of the language's (notable) existence and use. The many citations of Hamus' publications about ALF also establish notability though I do not think it helps the article to quote these. Example applications using ALF, and a non-technical introduction, would help the article (in my view). Thincat 13:11, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- If "notability" standards tell us that this language isn't to be included in the encyclopedia, the standards are unreliable in this case and should be ignored. Most likely they were compiled by people who have little experience with this subject. A bit of common sense goes a long way. As this is an academic programming language, asking for example applications is missing the point somewhat. --Tony Sidaway 07:48, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - The article did not have the delrev template posted on it and as such some people may not have known this discussion is occurring. I have posted it now. I'm posting this comment so that whoever closes the DRV can take this into account when considering how long it has ran/-Localzuk(talk) 19:37, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Also for whoever closes this review: The AfD did not reach consensus, as pointed out by the person who deleted the article after AfD and Localzuk during this discussion. SqlPac 03:01, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
|